Posts by You Know

52

65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS

by You Know in

with that in mind, then, we can better appreciate what jesus was referring to when he spoke about the temple of his body.

thats because they are persons, whereas the holy spirit is a force that is merely frequently referred to as if it were a person.

5. the wts claims that ezekial's prophecy of the jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization.

You Know

Hillary Step

Have you ever heard of the word 'Preterism'? - Research its concepts, and I mean all of them and then return. Until then you will not understand the point of our exchange, nad certainly not the point of the scriptures that you note.

Yes, I have heard of the term. You have been expousing preterist dogma trying to convince me that what I read in Scripture has no future application. I think that's nonsense.

What I am saying, and have been throughout these posts is that the prophetic and eschatological elements of the scriptures are open to as many intepretations as there are people who read them.

Not really. There is only one correct way to interpret the truth. What you mean is that anyone can twist and pervert the Scriptures anyway they prefer.

I have a library of approximately 7,000 books, many of them dealing with eschatology and some dating back to the C17th. If you were to write a book on the subject it would be squeezed between the others.

My theological library consists of about a half dozen different Bible translations and a couple of reference works. I'll take my Bible and stand it up against your 7,000 books any day, as in fact I have done. The preterist view is nothing but useless theological rubbish, in my opinion.

James Russell - 'Parousia' - remember the name and title.

Jesus Christ--- The King of kings and Lord of lords---remember the name and title.

/ You Know

52

65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS

by You Know in

with that in mind, then, we can better appreciate what jesus was referring to when he spoke about the temple of his body.

thats because they are persons, whereas the holy spirit is a force that is merely frequently referred to as if it were a person.

5. the wts claims that ezekial's prophecy of the jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization.

You Know

Willy think asks

Are you Jesus Christ?

No. Why do you ask?

Can a truth be wrong and still be a truth?

I suppose it can be truly wrong.

Hope that helps / You Know

52

65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS

by You Know in

with that in mind, then, we can better appreciate what jesus was referring to when he spoke about the temple of his body.

thats because they are persons, whereas the holy spirit is a force that is merely frequently referred to as if it were a person.

5. the wts claims that ezekial's prophecy of the jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization.

You Know

Hillary Step

The whole point, which seems to be evading you is that the 'entire inhabited earth' to your own admission was representative of the 'then known world'.

If I have admitted it, how is the concept supposedly "evading" me? Is it not rather the case that you simply refuse to accept the fact that the entire inhabited earth can also mean the ENTIRE inhabited earth?

You then make the quantum leap from that understanding and presume that in certain instances it also applied to the whole global arena in the year 2002. You do this with absolutely no evidence but only your own interpretation of the matter.

Compared to your stunted tottering baby steps, I suppose a normal mental stride would appear as a "quantum leap." According to your "reasoning," Jesus' kingdom is not going to rule the entire inhabited earth. You are evidently laboring under the hysterical delusion that God's universal kingdom is going to rule over only select localities, what you might refer to as "localized entire inhabited earths." LOL

Do you appreciate that most theologists disagree with your view of this. Does their opinion count less than yours? If so, why?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but popular opinion doesn't establish what the truth of a matter is. Only reason can do that. So-called theologists are no more qualified to interpret the Bible than some homeless guy on the street. I think because of their training they are in some cases less qualified to do so. Based upon what you have tried to put over on this thread, and others, if their reasoning is as twisted and shallow as yours than I can categorically dismiss them as not having any insight into matters pertaining to my faith.

Present some evidence that by the term 'entire inhabited earth', Jesus meant the Global scene in the year 2002.

I present the Bible as evidence, but that's apparently not what you want. But, to a person of faith, the fact that the present system has existed since the time of Christ is proof that Jesus' words still have relevance in the year 2002. How so? Those who would try to confine the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy to the ancient and remote Jerusalem quickly find themselves in a bit of a mess. For example, at Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus foretold that after the initial phase of the tribulation that the sign of the son of man would appear in heaven and that "all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation."

According to the sophistries of the "theologists" you recommend, evidently the expression "all the tribes of earth" doesn't really mean "all the tribes of earth," but merely all the tribes of Israel that happened to be dwelling in the entire inhabited earth located at Jerusalem. LOL I would imagine that there is no end to the silliness that an imaginative mind can come up with.

Too, the fact that Christ applied the prophecy of Daniel to himself, where he referred to the Son of man coming upon the clouds of heaven, is proof that the prophecy was intended to have a far-reaching global application. The 7th chapter, which Jesus was making reference to, foretells the end of all human rulership, and states that Christ's rulership will extend to all national groups and languages. After relating the vision Daniel wrote: "Up to this point is the end of the matter." The very fact that we are debating these things is proof that we have not arrived at the envisioned "end of the matter." The Roman Empire system has existed in its various mutations down to this year 2002 and has for a fact extended its tentacles around the earth, as the prophecy indicates that it would. Obviously Jesus' 1st century appearance did not bring an end to Satan's beastly political system; but, according to the prophecies, when the Son of man comes, the present ruling power has his rulership taken away, "in order to annihilate him and to destroy him totally." By no stretch of the imagination, or perhaps better worded...no sane person would argue that the political system has been totally destroyed by Christ's kingdom, as the prophecies mandate.

What is more, returning to the span of verses in Matthew, Jesus said: "And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity." Unless we wish to render language and words completely meaningless, expressions such as the above have to be accepted as intending to depict a global phenomenon. Did any such gathering occur after Jerusalem's tribulation in 70 CE? Quite the contrary. Christians who had been living in Judah and Jerusalem fled and were scattered to the proverbial four winds, where they remain until this very moment. The prophecy, however, depicts the opposite as taking place, namely that deputized angels would gather Jehovah's anointed ones from wherever they may be residing on the earth. Anyone, "theologists" included, who insists that expressions such as "from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity" should be understood as intending to apply to some localized area can simply be dismissed as an unreasoning fool or a petty con man, and in some cases---both.

/ You Know

52

65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS

by You Know in

with that in mind, then, we can better appreciate what jesus was referring to when he spoke about the temple of his body.

thats because they are persons, whereas the holy spirit is a force that is merely frequently referred to as if it were a person.

5. the wts claims that ezekial's prophecy of the jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization.

You Know

Hillary's Step

You have once again dismissed everything, historical and theological in preference to your own interpretation of what the phrase 'entire inhabited earth' may mean.

No, I haven't dismissed "everything". I considered each usage of the term that you presented. What I have dismissed as preposterous is your own interpretation of what you think Jesus meant when he said that the great tribulation would come in upon the entire inhabited earth.

You accept that it is local in some instances and yet insist, without any burden of proof being given that your intepretation is correct.

No, that's not true. I don't accept that the term in the instances you presented was defining something local. While not global, the term was clearly not intended to describe something confined to a locality such as a city. To describe Jerusalem as "the entire inhabited earth" is to render the phrase completely meaningless, which is apparently what you would prefer.

To show how absurd the sort of reasoning that you have embraced actually is, let's consider another text where Jesus used nearly the exact same expression. In Revelation where Jesus addressed himself to the seven congregations of Asia Minor, at 3:10 Jesus said that he would keep those faithful ones in the Philadelphian congregation safe "from the hour of test, which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth." Now, regardless of when you think Revelation may have been written, Asia Minor is a long way away from Jerusalem. And since there can only be one tribulation that has no equal Jesus must be talking about the same calamity. So, by Jesus' own words the prophecy regarding the tribulation affecting the entire inhabited earth clearly applied beyond the local confines of Judah and Jerusalem. And since Asia Minor was never subjected to any tribulation it is also evident that Jesus' prophecy in Revelation was meant to apply to the literal whole inhabited earth at a much later time.

You are simply wrong. But, I commend you for taking a whack at it. LOL / You Know

/ You Know

Edited by - You Know on 22 June 2002 20:36:19

52

65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS

by You Know in

with that in mind, then, we can better appreciate what jesus was referring to when he spoke about the temple of his body.

thats because they are persons, whereas the holy spirit is a force that is merely frequently referred to as if it were a person.

5. the wts claims that ezekial's prophecy of the jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization.

You Know

I succesfully showed you that in Biblical terms this often had local application.

No, you were not successful in your attempt to localize the great tribulation. "Local" is a perversion of the term. While in some usages it may not have encompassed the entire globe, the term "entire inhabited earth" certainly didn't apply to some locale like Jerusalem.

You Robert, have just made a major ass of yourself....again.

No, again, you are merely engaging in wishful delusions. LOL / You Know

52

65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS

by You Know in

with that in mind, then, we can better appreciate what jesus was referring to when he spoke about the temple of his body.

thats because they are persons, whereas the holy spirit is a force that is merely frequently referred to as if it were a person.

5. the wts claims that ezekial's prophecy of the jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization.

You Know

I will now show you from the NWT that this type of phrase is not to be taken as meaning a worldwide scope

So, now you are asking me to take you seriously? LOL

You must actually think Jehovah is an idiot don't you? As regards the numerous prophecies in Isaiah and Jeremiah, and elsewhere, you apparently imagine that God was just being grandiose when he spoke about Babylon's fall giving rest to all of the earth. For one thing, the Babylonian Empire was a global empire, to the extent that it was composed of 120 satrapies. So picturing the whole earth having rest when Babylon was over-thrown was appropiate. But, It is apparently beyond your comprehension that Jehovah intended the prophecy to have a much broader application that literally encompassed the entire earth, and so the prophecies actually await a grand fulfillment on a global scale. Actually, Revelation uses phraseology right out of the same chapter of Jeremiah you quoted, in reference to Babylon the Great, that has a kingdom over all the kings of the earth. That proves that those Hebrew prophecies have a much larger application which is why Jehovah used the terminology that he did.

Another aspect is in regard to the prophecy of the king of the north being one that didn't have a minor fulfillment, so it is a touchstone for how the other prophecies will yet unfold. The prophecy regarding Babylon coming from the north parallels the prophecy of the king of the north "going forth in a great rage in order to annihilate and to devote many to destrution," during the great tribulation, which as Daniel says will be a greater time of trouble since their came to be a nation until that time. That means that the tribulation will be greater than WWII, which for the most part was the only truely global war. But, for me to try and educate you on the intricacies of Bible prophecy would for certain be a violation of what is holy.

As far as the 1st century preaching work, and other events spoken of as happening in the entire inhabited earth, it simply means from the standpoint of the known world at that time, as far as they knew the world. For certain when that phrase was used it meant more than a mere city. So, to assert that Jesus' prophecy applied only to tiny little Judah, when he said the entire inhabited earth, is simply absurd. If Christ was merely talking about Jerusalem and Judah he wouldn't have made reference to the entire inhabited earth. When that expression was used it always meant an extented area, not some localized event. / You Know

52

65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS

by You Know in

with that in mind, then, we can better appreciate what jesus was referring to when he spoke about the temple of his body.

thats because they are persons, whereas the holy spirit is a force that is merely frequently referred to as if it were a person.

5. the wts claims that ezekial's prophecy of the jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization.

You Know

In short you asked to be taken seriously, I did not.

This is where the slithering weasel aspect enters in on your part. LOL You did in fact ask to be taken seriously. You asked me to take you seriously when you made a pretense of knowledge, particularly in regard to Christ's parousia and the destruction of Jerusalem, in order to call into question the credibility of our teaching. Now, though, when called upon to make proof of your own empty assertions, you claim you shouldn't be taken seriously. And, of course, I knew full well that you shouldn't be taken seriously, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. / You Know

52

65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS

by You Know in

with that in mind, then, we can better appreciate what jesus was referring to when he spoke about the temple of his body.

thats because they are persons, whereas the holy spirit is a force that is merely frequently referred to as if it were a person.

5. the wts claims that ezekial's prophecy of the jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization.

You Know

Hillary Step says:

Why should anyone take what you have to say seriously?

Why should anyone take what you have to say seriously?

Everything, and I mean everything that you proclaim in your opening post is your particular view of scripture and theology. Many would offer different interpretations and views of all the questions that you feel that you have attended to.

They are welcome to do so. I think the silence speaks for itself. By the way, I emailed the author of those questions and gave him a link to this forum, so I would especially welcome his comments.

You have not offered proof Robert, you have offered opinion. If you presented proof, there would be no denying the truth of your statements.

Men will always deny the truth. Those who are not guided by wicked reasonings and sheer faithlessness appreciate Scriptural reasoning. I have offered Scriptural proofs as the reason for my faith. The author of those questions presumably feels that the Bible is God's word, as do we, but that there were no Scriptural answers that Jehovah's Witnesses could offer. I have proven that our faith is supported by Scripture. Christians are under obligation to provide an answer to each one that asks, assuming the questioner is sincere. At the very least, in this case, I have proven that the questioner is in error and laboring under a good bit of ignorance.

Again you mention the presence of Christ in the last days. You have not answered previous thread on this matter satisfactorily as to the correct usage of the Koine Greek term 'parousia'. Your opinion of the usage of this word, differs from what is accepted by the mainstream of scholars in this regard.

Nonsense.

You have never even attempted, as far as I can recall, to present any serious proof that the last days spoken of in the Gospels were not in fact the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Anyone who has ever read Christ's prophecy, and who was not intent on self deception, knows that Jesus foretold that the great tribulation would be a global catastrophe and not some localized event. In Luke the 21st chapter Jesus said that it would "come in upon the entire inhabited earth." If you imagine that that prophecy applies solely to the destruction of Jerusalm back in 70 C.E., it is you who must supply the proof that would persuade us from coming to the reasonable conclusion that the entire inhabited earth is more encompassing than tiny little Jerusalem. Of course, you can't. You can only deny the truth, nothing more. / You Know

52

65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS

by You Know in

with that in mind, then, we can better appreciate what jesus was referring to when he spoke about the temple of his body.

thats because they are persons, whereas the holy spirit is a force that is merely frequently referred to as if it were a person.

5. the wts claims that ezekial's prophecy of the jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization.

You Know

Kennison says,

In response to question 1, You Know informs us: "For example, the gift of prophesy is no longer a gift in operation..." Says who? Yet a little further down he states: "Paul made mention of the fact that God set each one where it pleased him, assigning some as apostles, some as prophets, some as teachers, etc." Now, if we no longer need apostles and prophets, why do we need teachers like the W.T. Society? Further on he cites 1 Cor. 13:9 ("For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially") and then comments: "It stands to reason that such partial knowledge will in time give way to greater knowledge." Yet he fails to mention that partial prophesying will in time give way to greater prophesying. Why? If knowledge is not yet done away with, why would prophesying be?

Congratulations. You are the only one so far that even attempted an intelligent reply. To clarify things for you, the gifts of prophesy and knowledge have both been done away with. When Paul said that knowledge would cease he wasn't referring to Bible knowledge as such. He meant the kind of knowledge that God sent to men by special means. The fact that no one today has any gift of prophesy, or special knowledge that is not obtainable through the Bible, is proof that such things have been done away with, as Paul said they would be. But, just because such gifts are done away with doesn't mean that God also does away with the structure of his organization. Jesus foretold that there would be a faithful slave whom he would put in charge over his household who would be in that position when the Master finally came to settle accounts. / You Know

8

65 Questions JW's should be asked using NWT

by VioletAnai in

jw
friends

i found this while on a search and thought quite a few of you would be interested:.

http://www.webshowplace.com/question/65quest.html.

i found it very interesting to say the least.

You Know

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=30738&site=3